How long until you became profitable?

[fintan777 2]

Hi everyone.

Just wondering how long it took people before they became profitable? I am hoping I am not alone with being at this stage in my trading journey. 

I have been trading since June and my PnL looks like this: 

I am slowly getting better at eliminating my errors. A lot of my big losses came from having hulk days where I might lose a few hundred rather than max loss of 100. I started using fixed risk (35$) a couple months ago which has also helped my consistency a bit. I have recently asked DAS to implement the risk controls so I cannot trade after my PnL + commissions reaches 100. There was a day recently where I hit my max loss within 1 minute because I took too many shares and was forced to stop out when it went against me .This has made me focus on executing my trades better, because I don't want to get locked out of my account, so I am more selective with my trades. 
Basically, if I don't do anything dumb, I trade well. There was only one day that I can remember where I traded well but still lost. So its just a case of staying 100% focused and not making any dumb decisions.  The chart looks like its flattening out and beginning to slope up, however I wasn't focused today and took lackadaisical trades at the open and lost 380 as I took too many shares after not getting filled when initially used my fixed risk hot key. Whereas if I had waited(remained focuses - not do anything dumb), I would have had a great day as there were some great set ups... 

So its taken me 6 months to lose all this money, hopefully I can get back to green in half that amount of time...

So, how long until people became profitable? Any words of advice would also be good.

Thanks!

[Abiel 475]

How would your chart look without all your hulk days / unreasonable losing days? 

[JS 10]

Hi fintan77,

I am a new trader as well and started trading live in July. I never did SIM and started with $10 risk. I lowered it to $7  starting in December as I set my max loss for the day to $25 including commission. Basically, if I have 3 straight max loss trades I will stop. I also do not want to overtrade, so my stop of the day is either that I hit max loss of $25 or I finish 5 trades as I found that any trades beyond 5 trade are low quality trades. My current daily goal is 1-1.5 R. Once I reach the goal, I will stop and trade in DEMO account if I still want to trade. I try my best to stick to these rules. 

Below is my cumulative R chart since I started trading. As you can see, my main loss came from October as I was not strictly following the rules. Main drawdowns are from a few "hulk" days where I have -5 to -7R losses. So what Abiel asked definitely applied to me. I frequently got into ORB trades without a plan and clear mind. Then after a few failing trades at the start, I started revenge trading, resulting hulk days. I did some reflection in early November and basically created some rules for myself. In addition to sticking to the daily max loss rules, my main focus is on good trades. "one good trade", one a time. It is not easy as I still revenge trade from time to time but I think I am making some consistency for the last 2 months. Based on my current stat, I need to raise my risk from $7 to $40 to break even on commission. I am planning to slowly raise my risk to avoid psychological drawdowns. For sure, I need to improve my trades at the same time. I am hoping that I can maintain the consistency. 

As a new trader, I cannot give you many advices. But based on my limited experience, the keys are to keep "losing" days in control and to focus on one good trade a time. I give myself a year to work on trading to see if I can potentially build a career out of it. To be honest, 6 months is not a long time in any other career path. 

 

[fintan777 2]

21 hours ago, Abiel said:

How would your chart look without all your hulk days / unreasonable losing days? 

Turn your screen upside down - that's what my chart would look like! I have now nearly eliminated hulk days due to DAS enforced max loss settings. Now I need to avoid taking sub optimal trades. Does anyone know how long it took Andrew to become profitable? I have only found snippets of info on this. In his latest psychology book, he touches on that he lost $10k before going back to work while trading on the side.

[fintan777 2]

18 hours ago, Jiheng Sang said:

Hi fintan77,

I am a new trader as well and started trading live in July. I never did SIM and started with $10 risk. I lowered it to $7  starting in December as I set my max loss for the day to $25 including commission. Basically, if I have 3 straight max loss trades I will stop. I also do not want to overtrade, so my stop of the day is either that I hit max loss of $25 or I finish 5 trades as I found that any trades beyond 5 trade are low quality trades. My current daily goal is 1-1.5 R. Once I reach the goal, I will stop and trade in DEMO account if I still want to trade. I try my best to stick to these rules. 

Below is my cumulative R chart since I started trading. As you can see, my main loss came from October as I was not strictly following the rules. Main drawdowns are from a few "hulk" days where I have -5 to -7R losses. So what Abiel asked definitely applied to me. I frequently got into ORB trades without a plan and clear mind. Then after a few failing trades at the start, I started revenge trading, resulting hulk days. I did some reflection in early November and basically created some rules for myself. In addition to sticking to the daily max loss rules, my main focus is on good trades. "one good trade", one a time. It is not easy as I still revenge trade from time to time but I think I am making some consistency for the last 2 months. Based on my current stat, I need to raise my risk from $7 to $40 to break even on commission. I am planning to slowly raise my risk to avoid psychological drawdowns. For sure, I need to improve my trades at the same time. I am hoping that I can maintain the consistency. 

As a new trader, I cannot give you many advices. But based on my limited experience, the keys are to keep "losing" days in control and to focus on one good trade a time. I give myself a year to work on trading to see if I can potentially build a career out of it. To be honest, 6 months is not a long time in any other career path. 

 

Nice looking chart. Congrats. Is this net or gross?

[JS 10]

23 minutes ago, fintan777 said:

Nice looking chart. Congrats. Is this net or gross?

This is gross. I am close to break even of the month with commissions. 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Jiheng Sang

[JS 10]

32 minutes ago, fintan777 said:

Turn your screen upside down - that's what my chart would look like! I have now nearly eliminated hulk days due to DAS enforced max loss settings. Now I need to avoid taking sub optimal trades. Does anyone know how long it took Andrew to become profitable? I have only found snippets of info on this. In his latest psychology book, he touches on that he lost $10k before going back to work while trading on the side.

I am not sure about Andrew but based on books I read and videos I saw, it is reasonable to expect to be around 2 years. I think in “One good trade”, it is mentioned that 6- 12 months are reasonable. Mind you, this is at a prop firm with good training and mentorship. 
From “unknown market wizards”, it seems that even you are consistently profitable, it is not unexpected to have lost months or year. 

[cjsimon07 16]

I found consistency when I got rid of all my profit goals. I realize now I was trying too hard to reach a specific P&L and it was effecting my decisions. Now I try to focus 100% on making good decisions. I make notes on each trade as I take it throughout the day, so I can constantly monitor how I'm doing based on decision making. A good day is one where I make good decisions and manage my trades according to my rules. I haven't had a hulk day since I started doing this. 

I find Thor's mentoring sessions incredibly helpful. It was his suggestion to get rid of the profit goal and it worked for me. He often says don't lose more in a day than you can make back in a day or two. He couldn't be more right! I had a max loss day on Tuesday and made it back and then some on Wednesday. Everyone always says focus on the process not the profit. You just have to figure out your version of that. 

After watching Peter's SMART entry webinar I try to plan out my trades before I enter them so I have a plan for whatever the stock does. This allows me to stay calm and focused because I already know what I'm going to do. If I get my signal I enter, if not, I don't. Once I enter a trade, I've already planned my stop loss and profit targets, so all I have to do is follow my trade management rules. After doing this for a couple weeks I know I am in a good trade if I am calm. If I feel like the trade is "easy" then I know I'm prepared for it. The hardest part about this for me is missing setups because I didn't have enough time to prepare. Sometimes I impulsively enter the trade because I saw my signal, but my heart rate increases because I haven't planned the rest of my trade. I have been immediately stopping out of these trades, which more often than not seem to work out, but it's not worth the risk if I'm not calm and prepared.  

My best advice is don't worry about other people's timelines. Focus on your trades and your process. The hardest part for me is to be patient. I can see incremental improvement in my trading over time, but it is SO much slower than I want it to be. I see improvement in your graph. Take a step back and look at how far your come, realize it's going to take longer than you would like and keep working at it. Keep learning and improving every week. And try to stay positive! I have found that my best teacher is my own journal. I take the advice from the moderators here and apply it to my own trading. Your equity curve seems to be flattening out and it sounds like you know if you eliminate the hulk days things would be much better. Try to focus on making good decisions and reducing the bad ones. Also, keep in mind that as your equity curve starts moving up it's not going to be in a straight line. 

[gholamrhs 1]

what worked for me back in the day was remove the daily profit targets and the stress "that I have to make $$$ to pay bills". I understand a lot of people do not have that luxury. Focus on the charts, and only take A+ setups. Stay calm and stay away from REVENGE TRADES!! I usually tell new traders three things: take A+ setups, stay away from revenge trading and do not use margins. Hope it helps

[Alastair 114]

On 12/24/2020 at 4:52 PM, fintan777 said:

Just wondering how long it took people before they became profitable?

 

Watch this vid from the famous Bella....he mentions it in the middle plus other important points for new traders

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Alastair

[fintan777 2]

On 12/25/2020 at 11:19 PM, Jiheng Sang said:

I am not sure about Andrew but based on books I read and videos I saw, it is reasonable to expect to be around 2 years. I think in “One good trade”, it is mentioned that 6- 12 months are reasonable. Mind you, this is at a prop firm with good training and mentorship. 
From “unknown market wizards”, it seems that even you are consistently profitable, it is not unexpected to have lost months or year. 

I have not read either of these books. Would you recommend?

Yea I have heard 1-2 years. Thanks

[fintan777 2]

54 minutes ago, peterB said:

lower your risk to $10 or $15 until you see consistence. like this you are only losing more money

everybody is different but you wil certanily need more experience. i am trading 2.5 years and now it looks like i might be starting being profitable

best is to avoid and fix mistakes as soon as possible. do not try to do shortcuts and if you struggle with something obvious just do the right thing and do not try to ease it or ignore it. its a constant process of your evolution.

I was risking 20$ but I have upped my risk to 35$ as I have been more consistent recently. I haven't lost any money in the last few weeks I have not been breaking any rules.

[JS 10]

17 hours ago, fintan777 said:

I have not read either of these books. Would you recommend?

Yea I have heard 1-2 years. Thanks

both are good books to read in terms of giving you different perspectives of  a trader's life.

[fintan777 2]

On 12/26/2020 at 5:45 PM, cjsimon07 said:

I found consistency when I got rid of all my profit goals. I realize now I was trying too hard to reach a specific P&L and it was effecting my decisions. Now I try to focus 100% on making good decisions. I make notes on each trade as I take it throughout the day, so I can constantly monitor how I'm doing based on decision making. A good day is one where I make good decisions and manage my trades according to my rules. I haven't had a hulk day since I started doing this. 

I find Thor's mentoring sessions incredibly helpful. It was his suggestion to get rid of the profit goal and it worked for me. He often says don't lose more in a day than you can make back in a day or two. He couldn't be more right! I had a max loss day on Tuesday and made it back and then some on Wednesday. Everyone always says focus on the process not the profit. You just have to figure out your version of that. 

After watching Peter's SMART entry webinar I try to plan out my trades before I enter them so I have a plan for whatever the stock does. This allows me to stay calm and focused because I already know what I'm going to do. If I get my signal I enter, if not, I don't. Once I enter a trade, I've already planned my stop loss and profit targets, so all I have to do is follow my trade management rules. After doing this for a couple weeks I know I am in a good trade if I am calm. If I feel like the trade is "easy" then I know I'm prepared for it. The hardest part about this for me is missing setups because I didn't have enough time to prepare. Sometimes I impulsively enter the trade because I saw my signal, but my heart rate increases because I haven't planned the rest of my trade. I have been immediately stopping out of these trades, which more often than not seem to work out, but it's not worth the risk if I'm not calm and prepared.  

My best advice is don't worry about other people's timelines. Focus on your trades and your process. The hardest part for me is to be patient. I can see incremental improvement in my trading over time, but it is SO much slower than I want it to be. I see improvement in your graph. Take a step back and look at how far your come, realize it's going to take longer than you would like and keep working at it. Keep learning and improving every week. And try to stay positive! I have found that my best teacher is my own journal. I take the advice from the moderators here and apply it to my own trading. Your equity curve seems to be flattening out and it sounds like you know if you eliminate the hulk days things would be much better. Try to focus on making good decisions and reducing the bad ones. Also, keep in mind that as your equity curve starts moving up it's not going to be in a straight line. 

Hi cj thanks for your response. Do you mind giving me an example / template on how you journal your trades? I do not journal my trades but I am going to start now.
I think my main problem is over trading, I take too many set ups even though every time before the trading day I say "I'm only going to take good set ups". I think I'm slowly getting better but like you said, its way slower than I want it to be. Thanks again

On 12/27/2020 at 8:26 PM, peterB said:

your graph says different. but if you are in the phase when you do not do mistakes then work on picking the best setups and the profits will come automatically. avoid overtrading. do not care about commissions yet. i was in the phase not doing mistakes too. then saw the mistakes 🙂

also having a target of 1R will not be statistically weighted enough for you to find out if you trade well or not as there is a 50% chance on any randomly taken trade that you get to 1R while statistically a 12 or 16 in-a-row is possible. i believe you will see the consistency with at least 2-3R target

I am gross profitable. Its my commissions that has me in the red...

[amber graham 2]

It took my 4 months to become consistent and have an upward p/l. You can read and practice as much as you want but it isn’t ever going to work untill Yoy can completely control your emotions every day every trade.  You said your a good trader when your not making mistakes, we all are. Self control in the moment is the key to success for me.   I actually traded options successfully for 16 months before switching to day trading so I had a head start with the mind set.